September 26, 2002-September 26, 2025. There are 23   years (to the day) since the boat "le Joola" capsized off the Gambian coast, resulting in the death of nearly 2,000 passengers, while the ferry was supposed to carry 550. A tragedy that exposed failings in maritime safety and the poor behavior of users. The theme chosen for this 23rd anniversary sounds like a reminder to all Senegalese: "23 years after 'le Joola': The urgency of remembrance, the imperative of changing behavior." In this interview with Seneweb, Boubacar Ba, honorary president of the National Association of Families of Victims and Survivors of the "Joola" (ANFVR-Joola), returns to these essential points of the theme, not without bringing back to the table the question of the salvage of the wreck. Interview!

You are the honorary president of the National Association of Families of Victims and Survivors of the "Joola" (Joola) disaster. The association has experienced many ups and downs. Today, what is the approach to effectively addressing the grievances of the families of victims and survivors of the "Joola" disaster?

I'm going to give a brief reminder, in the aftermath of the sinking of the "Joola", with the creation, first of all, of the Survivors' Association, which was the first association set up. Because at that time, we were really a little lost with the scale of this tragedy. Subsequently, people organized themselves into a regional association. It was in 2003 that the National Association - which brings together all the regional associations and the Survivors' Association - was created for this purpose, since the State wanted to have an interlocutor to really talk, discuss this tragedy and see all the points that needed to be raised.

So, it is in this respect that we, as a national structure, have raised: the question of justice, the question of the care of families in general. Especially the question of the care of the orphans of the "Joola". We had counted 1,900. And, of course, everything related to the case: the salvage of the wreck, all the questions surrounding the tragedy on behalf of the families of the victims and beyond that also to raise some demands that constituted the distant causes of the tragedy, namely the problem of the landlocked nature of Casamance.

Because it must be remembered, this ship was acquired to open up Casamance maritime security. And so, we felt that we could not simply limit ourselves to the demands specific to the victims' families, but in the context of the Casamance crisis and also the problem of Casamance's isolation. So, a whole range of demands were put on the table of the State.

As you said, along the way, many issues were addressed. Solutions were found. We must also tell the truth about the State's efforts on the issue of the landlocked nature of the Casamance region, with the acquisition of three ships: "Aline Sitoé", "Aguene" and "Diambogne". There is also the dredging of the river, the construction of two ferry terminals, in Ziguinchor and Dakar, the Carabane wharf, since the stopover at Carabane was very important to us. The boat would not agree to make a stopover at the island of Carabane; it was there simply to be able to take other passengers on board pirogues. It was really nonsense. The State has done a lot in this regard.

Concerning the university too, which is one of our greatest successes, it was born from the fact that more than 400 pupils and students had perished in this tragedy. We raised the issue of the university, to tell the head of state, at the time Abdoulaye Wade, that it was necessary to create a regional university to absorb all the flow of students forced to go to Dakar or elsewhere to study. This has led today to the construction of Assane Seck University. All the students who are directed there today owe it to the families of the victims.

Another thing: at the time, we also submitted a plan to the State to support this incredible youth who are there. So we had to create the integration fund with 2 billion for Casamance youth. And we did that on behalf of the people.

In short, that's all we've been able to achieve over the past 23 years. And the passage of time has shown us that, 23 years later, certain specific issues related to families remain relevant, namely: the refloating, the question of shedding light on the shipwreck.

"Many families believe that bones can be exposed, as Rwanda did in this case of genocide."

Why do you still insist on shedding light on this tragedy, when the legal proceedings that were initiated in France and Senegal have not resulted in any convictions?

Because this is the largest civil maritime disaster ever known to humanity. And we believe that this issue cannot be dismissed as a loss and profit. That is why we believe this is an important lever, an important aspect that must be clarified. So that justice can be done on behalf of the victims' families. Not in terms of revenge, as we explained earlier, but sincerely to ensure that such situations never happen again in our country.

Beyond that, the issues that also come up are the care of orphans and the refloating, of course, even if 23 years later, some believe that this is no longer a current issue. But we believe that even if the wreck cannot be removed, the contents of the wreck can be used for the memorial. The proof is that we removed the two propellers, we removed some personal items, but we believe that this is not enough. Because the scale of the memorial would certainly allow us to include other elements.

Many families believe that bones can be exhibited, as Rwanda did in this case of genocide. But these issues, obviously, must be shared. These are very sensitive issues. But I think that if we have the real will, we can move forward so as not to return to these recurring issues in terms of demands.

Precisely, regarding the refloating of the wreck of the "Joola", which is a long-standing grievance that has so far remained unsatisfied, do you have any hope that the new authorities will be able to grant this request?

Yes, absolutely. There is a real, sincere desire on the part of the new regime . I think that the President of the Republic has given instructions regarding the commemoration. He has instructed all his ministers to ensure that they meet the families' specific demands and support them, depending, of course, on the state's resources. We are therefore very calm and confident that, certainly with the new authorities, we will succeed in this issue of reinforcement.

I would also like to take this opportunity to say that, as far as we are concerned, at the time, we had made other approaches to the European Commission with Louis Michel. He was the Commissioner responsible for economic development at the commission level, who had given the green light on the financial and technical level. But there was no follow-up at the local level, unfortunately. That is why we are where we are, and I think we will certainly evolve, certainly with the new authorities. We will first ask these questions to truly transcend this issue.

Today, 23 years later, the fight you are waging also militates against forgetting. In your opinion, what lever or strategy will enable us to meet this challenge?

First, with the existence of the memorial, families should be able to meet in their homes. It is an excellent monument, since we were involved when the call for tenders was made for the architectural plan and it was I who chose this boat shape, since it was with the Order of Architects. So, what you see today is the very expression of the families' feelings, because when we go to this monument, it actually reminds us of the boat "le Joola".

If we look at it a little more and the State puts the will to allow families to find themselves as stakeholders in the management of the memorial - a collegial, inclusive management between the State and us - I think that it would be a fantastic tool.

In a recent post, you challenged the authorities on the inclusion of the story of "Joola" in school curricula. What is the situation today?  

Absolutely. We started this year. If you look closely, the orphans' initiative, regarding the International "Joola" Day at Assane Seck University and the University of Dakar, is a start in this direction. That is to say, the meeting with the students also allowed us to lift a corner of the veil on this "Joola" issue so that these students could immerse themselves in what happened through the newspaper's offerings.

We first called on the academic world, professors, rectors, etc. Above all, the Minister of National Education and the Minister of Higher Education should be able to use this as an important lever. When we were little, we learned the history of others. Whereas we have a tremendous asset and an important lever, because the "Joola" must be seen in a positive light. It is in this spirit that we see the story of the shipwreck told, especially by the survivors. They lived it. Today we had an extraordinary session at the memorial, with the testimony of survivors like Léandre Coly and Cheikh Niang, who shared their own experiences during this tragedy.

I admit that honestly, we had goosebumps, given what they gave us as information about what they experienced and with the students who were there it was so moving. Precisely, through these testimonies and others, it really helps to show that everything is possible. Yes, in a very difficult way, they got through it of course with God's help, but I think that if we tell the story of the "Joola", it will allow the whole nation to focus on essential questions and move forward. Because until now, we have not learned the lessons, the lessons of the "Joola".

“The Senegalese people’s favorite sport is indiscipline.”

Nearly 2,000 people died on a boat that was supposed to hold 550. Twenty-three years later, has this change in behavior in transport really taken place?

No, there is no change! Honestly! I admit that personally, I take the road, but it is really difficult as a driver, when I realize the behavior of people on the roads. I admit that nothing has changed since 2002, except that the favorite sport of the Senegalese is indiscipline. I am sorry to tell you, but we cannot build a nation on indiscipline. We have a duty of citizenship. It is not the State that will be able to resolve our misbehavior.

I think it's up to us, as citizens, to use our citizenship to set an example. If we don't do that, no matter how much the government wants us to change things. Because, as they say, the state can't come to your house and change you.

I think that this is a surge of pride that will allow us to pull ourselves together. Of course, the State must set the tone to enforce the law. I have had the opportunity to travel the world. I admit that in some countries, like the United States, we don't even need police officers because everyone respects each other. The public square should be a framework of respect. Unfortunately, in our country, I have the impression that we don't respect each other.

We thought that perhaps "the Joola" must have been a turning point. If you remember, in the first hours after the sinking, if you look at the traffic, there was no overload. And it was spontaneous. It wasn't the State that decreed it, it was the citizens who made their commitment, since it was a trauma for the whole country. And for a few months it was the discipline. And afterward, everyone forgot about it and then we started our favorite sport again. That's what's a shame, actually.

What particular appeal do you make to the authorities and citizens on this day of remembrance and mourning?

The theme that was raised this year, chosen by the orphans, is "The imperative of remembrance and the need for introspection." It says it all. So, it's a call from the victims that we are, for people to remember. Because even when you march, especially the new generation, you ask young people, they don't even know. I'm 23 years old, what they tell me, 23 years old. They're not interested in their history.

We don't see time passing, but we believe there is a duty to work, to remember. It is the imperative of remembrance that is emphasized.

The other aspect is the introspective framework. That's why, in today's panel, we highlighted the survivors' testimonies, which were very moving. We'll be republishing it.

We even wanted to do what we call "ndëp" (exorcism) every three months, which is what we call "ndëp" (exorcism) in Wolof, that is, in front of an audience, that we could repeat things like this. Perhaps this could result in something extraordinary for us citizens. And there are hundreds of people who have experienced it. And we think that it is those who have experienced it who can inspire this dynamic to tell others, "Be careful! Please don't do that, because we wouldn't wish anyone to be in the situation we experienced."

Interview conducted by Max Euclide KANFANY, Seneweb correspondent in Ziguinchor